Posted by Rick Denney on June 16, 2003 at 14:49:55:
In Reply to: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Who's Copying Whom? (Long) posted by Carole Nowicke on June 16, 2003 at 12:29:51:
Well, that tidbit deals my Sousaphone-->Fat Contrabass theory a blow, heh, heh. But maybe I can salvage the Sousaphone-->Fat front action contrabass theory.
So, fat contrabasses were popularly used in bands before the invention of the sousaphone, and in at least one case in an orchestra from well before the time Donitelli sold his York to Jacobs. Was the tubist in that 1914 photo Donitelli? He claims in his 1934 Conn endorsement to have used Conn instruments since 1907, but I don't know his dates.
Thinking back, I recall seeing top-action BBb BAT's from as early as the turn of the last century, including the Holtons and the Lyon and Healy tubas on Dale Hale's web site. Chuck has a creation that includes the outer branches from a Keefer BBb that dates from that era, that isn't quite 6/4 but is still pretty big. I've seen a picture of a BBb Conn from 1913 that is huge--easily bigger than the CSO York. It is the earliest front-action piston contrabass that I recall seeing. I have seen several pictures of very large rotary contrabasses going back much further--into the 1850's.
Part of my theory is that the front-action piston contrabasses got their valve bodies from sousaphones. Perhaps this was in reaction to the needs of orchestral players who wanted bells pointing left rather than righ, while still using parts mostly at hand. The outer branches might have come from those giant top-action tubas used by bands and the valves from sousaphones, but the question is why did anyone want a front-action piston instrument in the first place?
In just spending a bit more time searching around the Internet, I see many small Eb tubas from Distin, Boston Musical Instrument Mfry, and many others of that style. They are all top-action instruments. There are some BBb tubas of the same style as well, but no CC tubas and no F tubas with American provenance at all from before 1900 or so.
By the way, I found a problem with dates concerning Torchinsky's account. Ormandy didn't become "co-conductor" until 1936, and not full conductor with all the priveleges of dictatorship until Stokowski's departure in 1938. My recollection is that Donitelli sold the instrument to Jacobs while Jacobs was at Curtis, from which he graduated in 1936. Something doesn't fit.
Rick "chasing the rabbit down a hole" Denney